*crossposted at Larvatus Prodeo...*
Those cheeky monkeys over at Zoo magazine have done it again!
Pushing the envelope with his ‘dare to be different’ competitions, Zoo’s editor Paul ‘Show Us Your Tits’ Merrill has come out with this response to those pesky (and, it has to be said, hairy) feminazis who got their big granny knickers in a knot over the Win A Set Of Big Ones For Your Missus competition advertised a few weeks ago.
Displaying the plucky can-do attitude we’ve come to know and love him for, Merrill brushed aside tiresome suggestions that his Boys Like Birds With Funner Fun-Bags comp was generally a bit insulting towomen fat man-hating dyke lesbo humourless femmos. Once again demonstrating superior understanding of the female psyche, Merrill figured out that what we feminists are really upset about is not having our very own misogynistic competition that we can proudly be part of. But look! Now even those amongst us who favour ‘sensible shoes’ (feminist = lesbian) and are too busy battling inequality to buy deodorant (feminist = smelly) can be assured that, when it comes to getting your kit off for a lad’s mag, possessing progressive politics won’t stand in your way.
Pushing the envelope with his ‘dare to be different’ competitions, Zoo’s editor Paul ‘Show Us Your Tits’ Merrill has come out with this response to those pesky (and, it has to be said, hairy) feminazis who got their big granny knickers in a knot over the Win A Set Of Big Ones For Your Missus competition advertised a few weeks ago.
Displaying the plucky can-do attitude we’ve come to know and love him for, Merrill brushed aside tiresome suggestions that his Boys Like Birds With Funner Fun-Bags comp was generally a bit insulting to
THE men's magazine which sparked outrage when it offered a $10,000 boob job as a competition prize has responded to its critics by launching a search for Australia's sexiest feminist.
Zoo Weekly magazine angered health and women's groups when it urged men to "win" their girlfriend a boob job by sending in shots of her cleavage.
The lad's mag today revealed its new competition - a search "for the hottest girl in sensible shoes" - promising the winner a year's supply of deodorant and a sexy photo shoot.
"If you hate men, we want to see photos of you in sexy lingerie," the ad reads.
The thing that really makes me furious about this pathetic stunt isn’t that it was syndicated to all News Ltd outlets yesterday as if it passes for real ‘news’. It’s not even necessarily the continued insistence of Zoo to disregard women’s outrage at the sexist and degrading way they both treat and promote femininity. What really gets me here is the predictable and tired joke that’s being had at the expense of feminism, and the slap-on-the-back encouragement that you know is coming from the greasy neanderthals that staff these kinds of offices.
Merrill’s response is indicative of the worst kind of disregard for women. I’m hypothesizing here, but I would say that Zoo exists because it celebrates a particular kind of femininity dominant in the porn industry. Zoo would have you believe that these women are compliant, malleable, sexy, sexually available, sexually adventurous, sexually assertive, sexually willing and sexually explicit when it comes to their personal tastes. Their assertiveness is packaged in a strict space and is acceptable only so long as it isn’t being displayed negatively against men. The attraction lies in these women being so ‘sexually empowered’ that they are willing to fulfil their audience’s every fantasy and desire.
There’s nothing wrong with having sexual fantasies that involve the complete submission of your partner. Men can fantasise about women crawling all over the floor waiting to service them all they like – I don't think it’s any less valid a fantasy than any other. The difference is how some men respond to women who don’t behave in a coquettish and submissive manner in real life - that’s where Zoo irrefutaby falls down. By virtue of the fact that it so vehemently seeks to desexualise any woman that expresses opposition to their practices, Zoo demonstrates complete and abject disdain for the rights of women to coexist outside of this fantasy world.
The message is simple – women are okay as long as they’re playing by the men’s rules (which basically amount to not putting up a fuss about being considered 'fuckable'). Dissent is possible, but only if expressed in a cutesy pie, not-really-serious, isn't-she-hot-when-she-pouts-I-just-want-to-bend-her-over-and-give-her-one kind of manner.
Stray from these strict guidelines all you want, but expect to feel the full force of derision - and often violent attempts at humiliation - wafting from the Smoking Room. Worse, expect to be told that your very valid objections are indicative of a complete lack of humour, a determination to 'spoil it for the boys' and a total absence of femininity and sexual attractiveness.
Indeed, "Feminist!" has become the rallying attack cry from the armies of men that refuse to acknowledge that a woman's greatest aspiration isn't uniquely connected to how much men want to fuck them. Its hissed utterance has become ubiquitous for a host of inaccurate and lazy ideas that only serve to crudely mask the speaker's own ignorance and disinterest in directly engaging with those he seeks to demonise.
Rebecca West really had it right when she said, "I myself have never been able to find out precisely what feminism is: I only know that people call me a feminist whenever I express sentiments that differentiate me from a doormat, or a prostitute."
Zoo's latest stunt is designed not to, as it argues, appease its critics but to poke even more fun at women who disagree with their pathetic, childish behaviour. Put simply, it's an aggressive act that seeks to humiliate women through the metaphorical equivalent of a giant turkey slap. Essentially, it's the equivalent of suggesting to a woman who speaks out against generic sexual harrassment that her disapproval probably stems from jealousy.
Their use of Germaine Greer as a figurehead next to the image of a burning bra deftly reduces the concept of feminism to anti-femininity and the wilfully misuderstood writings of one (amazing) woman (who these days is conveniently written off as being more manly than the men she supposedly hates - HAHAHA not a real woman, ugly etc).
At its heart, Merrill's competition is just one giant Fuck You to the sexless, smelly, sensible shoe wearing brigade that would dare to try and spoil his fun. Feminists, Merrill is saying, can bang on all they like about inquality and sexual oppression but at the end of the day he's the one with the power. And as there doesn't seem to be any shortage of women busting to get their bits out in his magazine, he doesn't really need to pay attention to the piddling little squawks of protest coming from the gnashing army of women who are no doubt resentful of the fact that no one wants to bend them over and defile them six ways from Sunday.
Real sexiness can't be bought, and Germaine is smokin' hot at any age...
Peace out (from a completely hott and sexy feminist who knows her sexiness stems from the fact that she owns it and doesn't need a man to bestow the honour upon her - and one who thinks believing she's entitled to respect and dignity only adds to her sexiness, not precludes her from it)
Hear hear.
ReplyDelete(I wonder whether anyone who counts themselves as a feminist is dumb enough to partake in this second competition.)
Well, it's a post for another time, but I've been having a spirited argument with mtk over whether or not these sorts of competitions (outside of zoo) can encourage women to be more open to the movement. My feeling is its counterproductive and doesn't sit comfortably with me at all.
ReplyDeleteI can just imagine the zoo questions to the lucky 'winner'...
"So! Does being a feminist mean you always have to go on top? *yuk yuk yuk!!!*)
grrrrr
ReplyDeleteLoved the original Zoo post and email, btw, and forwarded it around to my email list - including a couple who kept on forwarding it to their lists. So, thanks for that!
This is ridiculous, but even more so (as you say) is the fact that it's being given any air time/print space at all.
Germaine Greer (author of the erotic ode to young male beauty 'The Boy' and quite the promiscuous one in her day) is not a man hater in the least, so haha to Zoo. And as you say, she's smokin' hot anyway.
Ariel, I remember being a confused young man when her documentary of the same name was on TV years and years ago. It was HOT!
ReplyDeleteYou know I've heard that Australian media is far more outwardly sexist than American media. Even our lad mags are somewhat tamer (but our porn is rauchier).
ReplyDeleteI'd like to believe there wouldn't even be a tabloid that would run this kind of competition in the U.S. but with Rupert Murdoch I won't want to stake my life on it.
Great post, Audrey.
ReplyDeleteI love Germaine and her refusal to be cowed by her detractors.
ReplyDeleteAnd... I love that you have the tag 'fuck you zoo'! Looking forward to additions to the canon. oh *and* the cannon.
First off, the only thing i like about mens mags are the sexy half naked ladies. Feminists would tell me my penis makes me too stupid to differentiate between women as fantasy and women as equals and that following normal biological urges and enjoying the images of sexy women makes me some horrible sexist misogynist. But the feminist are also quite conveniently blind to the fact the male models in the magazines are really really ridiculously good looking and fit. Why don't I feel the urge to demonize the normal sexuality of any woman that gets aroused looking at hot men? Oh right because I don't hate womens sexuality.
ReplyDeleteThe reason I dislike these rags is the negative stereotypes of men they perpetuate. The frat boy mentality thing has always turned my stomach, they constantly portray men as stupid as shit idiots and they perpetuate the idea that men without money or babes are losers.
Audrey, you never Bore-drey me. That post was awesome, and i feel like applauding. I AM a feminist lesbian, but i also love men AND lovely smelling body washes AND shaving my armpits.
ReplyDeleteHey, maybe I should enter! Oh no wait, i just remembered i have self worth. Never mind.
ariel - I just sent her an email actually telling her how much I love her.
ReplyDeletejacob - I'm torn on the teenage boy thing. On the one hand I see incredible beauty in the form and the statement she was trying to make, and on the other I wonder if she wasn't just fighting objectification with objectification. Will have to ponder it some more...
newscat - I'd wager a guess that it's because the christian morality squad are far more powerful in America. I've never been, but I'd love to see the difference. We certainly have a lot of really sexist advertising here, and a news ltd paper chain that loves to demonse feminism.
tim - Thanks!
susanna - Oh, me too...bastards.
hujo - "Feminists would tell me my penis makes me too stupid to differentiate between women as fantasy and women as equals and that following normal biological urges and enjoying the images of sexy women makes me some horrible sexist misogynist."
Hujo, this is my point. You have collectively assigned one way of thinking to the term 'feminist' and are refusing to read anything further. Did you even read the post? I specifically pointed out that there is nothing wrong with fantasies of submission and multiple women and what not, provided the fantasiser understands that women don't have a responsibility to recreate this in real life. You also assume that all feminists 'hate' male sexuality which again is simply an ignorant thing to say. I don't hate male sexuality at all. I have sex with men - men who respect me, I might add - and I don't hate them or begrudge their desire to have sex. What I hate is the assumption that a woman should behave like a porn star in the bedroom because some men are too stupid to realise that behaviour is not inherent to women and is indeed PUT ON. I suggest you consider some of your own prejudices and blindness before you start accusing 'the feminists' of such things.
bec - You are a darling! Body wash is delightful - what's your favourite? I'm a fan of Palmolive's aromatherapy range in the purple bottle. Lavender and ylang ylang...mmm. Sensual!
Some men? Maybe a vastly small minority. Then why is it even an issue to you?
ReplyDelete"Feminist!" has become the rallying attack cry from *the armies of men* that refuse to acknowledge that a woman's greatest aspiration isn't uniquely connected to how much men want to fuck them."
And why is what was in your post, ARMIES of men now reduced to some?
How condescending to suggest men believe women have a responsibility to act out their fantasies. How weird it is to believe women don't enjoy acting out mens fantasies or dirty porn star sex or group sex.
"You have collectively assigned one way of thinking to the term 'feminist' and are refusing to read anything further."
Sorry I should have said armies of feminists.
Now that you have read Hujo's post, let me take your angry, frustrated mind to a place of goodness.
ReplyDeletePalmolive Naturals Milk and Honey.
Goodness me it is so very extremely delicious.
And on that note, I would also like to dispense with the Germaine love. And i would like to suggest someone hires Meryl Streep to play Germaine in a movie.
Yowzer.
Is Germain Greer one of those male friendly feminists?
ReplyDeletehttp://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/g/germaine_greer.html
"All societies on the verge of death are masculine. A society can survive with only one man; no society will survive a shortage of women.
English culture is basically homosexual in the sense that the men only really care about other men.
I have always been principally interested in men for sex. I've always thought any sane woman would be a lover of women because loving men is such a mess. I have always wished I'd fall in love with a woman. Damn.
I think that testosterone is a rare poison.
Probably the only place where a man can feel really secure is in a maximum security prison, except for the imminent threat of release.
The real theater of the sex war is the domestic hearth."
Nope
The most ridicules thing about all this is that the government actually tried to intervene and here I thought the patriarchy served men and not feminists?
Great post Audrey.
ReplyDeleteNo doubt Zoo will find someone for their competition *sigh* No doubt thin, big boobs and wearing glasses for that feminist 'brainy' touch.
Working in the Sydney CBD I despair at the amount of plucked, shaved, hungry looking women. Sure shaving, plucking, putting on make up with a paint scraper etc is a choice, but it just doesn't look like choice somehow.
"Two or three things I know for sure, and one is that I'd rather go naked than wear the coat the world has made for me."
-Dorothy Allison
(a big sexy lesbian feminist poet/author bloody legend)
'plucked, shaved, hungry looking women'
ReplyDeleteI love it!
You are a great example Audrey - from what I have seen of you you are a babe, and intelligent, and confident in your opinion and demand respect. If Zoo only knew...
ReplyDeleteAnd I love that West quotation.
You know I've found that guys always blame women. In relationships for example, if you find fault with a male they will make it all about you. Turn it around. It seems to be how most of them deal with criticism and opposition - when it comes from a woman at least.
Brilliant post Audrey. When I read this article it made my blood boil with rage, I had to look away because my stress levels were peaking at that stage.
ReplyDeleteThis quote just says it all I think
"If you hate men, we want to see photos of you in sexy lingerie," Yes because obviously being a feminist means that you have to hate men and even if I did hate men, why would I want to pose in sexy lingerie?
http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=293514
ReplyDeleteI know it's ninemsn, but Zoo Weekly have done it again.
I'm going to have a long hot relaxing bath, read a wonderful new book, and lather myself in Honey and Milk bodywash. And NOT think about the stupidity for awhile.
I think i deserve it.
Hi Audrey,
ReplyDeleteIs Zoo's actions also about trying to commodify women who have previously in some ways resisted the total commodification of their bodies? If we take the body to be a political site, perhaps this could be seen as an attempt to 'penetrate a market' over particular women's bodies, hence disciplining certain problem women to behave and dress in a way that allows them to become further commodified/fetishized by men under patriarchal capitalist social formation?
But I'm more annoyed at stupid Zoo upstaging the protesters at APEC with bikini clad models. It seems even protest is a way for them to sell product.
Hope you are good.
Ed
I am sure the Zoo guys and girls are loving all the chat they have created. Zoo is an extreme on how both men and women are portrayed in the media and advertising nowdays. The sexuality portrayed is mostly the realms of fantasy in all sorts of different areas. Women are mostly portrayed as mindless objects with impossibly perfect bodies, men are portrayed as chiselled faced objects with perfect abs and pecs. Nothing especially wrong with that in isolation, however, there are enough people who believe in these images that they self mutilate themselves to conform to what is impossible. Cosmetic surgery is one of the most popular 'pastimes' and growing quickly among both men and women. It is the number one acivity for women in the affluent set of Brazil!!The boob job is getting more common, while men are forking out money ( about US$2,500) to cut their nerves around their stomach so they can have a permanent 6 pack. ( I must admit that I have the amusing image of these guys being 70, wrinkly everywhere, but a perfectly formed 6 pack! The mimd boggles)While this is disturbing in itself, other effects are more serious and even worse. A recent survey in the UK, asking 10 year olds what they wanted to be when the grow up, gave back the stunning result of 30% of girls and 27% of boys said ' be a celebrity'. Pornography, which used to be on the margins, but is now very mainstream. It is also scary that mainstream porn is becoming even more mysogonist than it has been in the past. One noted director of porn even recently vented frustration at the recent evolution of his ' art' saying it had become about how many pricks you can put in how many holes at the same time! Yuk!
ReplyDeleteI think both men and women should unite on this unreal portrayal of sexuality and have a femalism, a combination of both males and females that fight against the tyranny of celebrity culture and glorification of the aesthetic. Not sure what they would do but I am sure there are enough people, with better imaginations than mine, that would have some great ideas!
Audrey, love your blog, always fun.
Congratulations Audrey.. I think you got your first real live troll!! YAY!! it means you are making an excellent point!!
ReplyDeleteI'm torn in such circumstances, because I think actions like Zoo's need to be argued against, but at the same time you know every argumentative word published simply feeds their coffers and makes them do something even more "sensational" next time. You want to kick and scream and yet know at the same time you are falling for their trap.
If I am the first perhaps I should clarify the term.
ReplyDelete"Troll” Someone with a different opinion.
If she is making such excellent points, why is she incapable of defending them?
Why is men stereotyping women bad while feminists stereotyping men good?
Why do feminists demonize men's sexuality?
Why are attractive women and men that like attractive women so threatening to feminists?
Why is your government pandering to feminist hysteria?
Why are feminists surprised when people they attack fight back? This magazine is merely retaliating.
Great post, Audrey. Did you see Greer fend off Anna Coren's tabloid ire over her ono-observance of the Diana myth on Today Tonight last week? And you can quote Rebecca West at me any time you like. Her writings are some of the best reportage ever. Personal without the journalist becoming the story.
ReplyDeleteBrilliant post Auds. You manage to articulate my thoughts in a much more eloquent way than I ever could.
ReplyDeleteDon't force me to scan the topless picture I have of Greer with Viv from the Bonzo Dog Doo-Dah Band.
ReplyDeletePlus, have you ever seen the guys who actually write for these magazines? It's revenge of the nerds, let me tell you.
hujo - audrey has defended herself against most of your claims in her very first post. From your questions I would say that you actually have not read what she has written in the original post. Where in my view she has deconstructed the simplistic understanding of feminists and women offered up by Zoo.
ReplyDeleteI cannot understand your question about 'stereotyping men' being positioned as a good thing, as audrey says nothing of the sort, nor from my reading does this make sense, as audrey seems against overly simple stereotypes. But there has to be some strategic essentialism involved in an argument. I do not think audrey is not talking about you personally when she refers to 'armies of men', but refers to the position of power men hold in society.
Simon - I agree with you up to a point, but I think men have to support women in their struggles, and accept that women have a different position in the fight against gender stereotyping in terms of the power that men institutionally hold.
Well said, Audrey. I so love your posts on this enlightening topic - particularly in following through with Zoo's reponse.
ReplyDeleteWell done.
ReplyDeleteHave you seen this? Nice work from Crimitism
http://crimitism.wordpress.com/2007/09/06/crimitism-searches-for-the-worlds-sexiest-mens-rights-activist/
“We’re calling for feminists all over Australia to show that women can be sexy even if they disapprove of sexy women.”
ReplyDeleteCause you know what's really sexy? Plastic boobs. Plastic boobs your boyfriend won you from Zoo magazine.
Why do men want to look at sexy man-haters anyway? Won't it just further confuse them?
hujo, i feel like you misunderstand most of audrey's points [and her attempts to assuage you].
ReplyDeleteand whose government is pandering to feminist hysteria? certainly not mine.
why are feminists "hysterical" for asking not to be abused? you can't be unaware of the irony in your choice of language. you really do yourself no favours.
Edward Yates-
ReplyDelete“I do not think Audrey is not talking about you personally when she refers to 'armies of men', but refers to the position of power men hold in society.”
Um yeah because I thought she wrote the article to me personally??? HUH? Correct me if I am wrong but she seems to be suggesting "Armies of men" are to stupid to distinguish between women as fantasy and women as equals. She is also implying "armies of men" feel that an unattractive women has no worth. When feminists imply things like this, it is only natural for men to dislike the stereotypes being dumped on them by feminists.
Yes by ignoring womens progress and conflating the elite with men in general feminists claim that all men are still privileged over women. This too is a negative stereotype, as the elite is but a small % of our modern society. Feminists are constantly defining the general man in a negative light. It is essentially the same as a misogynist defining women as he sees them. He has no right to define women, as he is biased and not female, same thing implies to feminists.
MSKP-“and whose government is pandering to feminist hysteria? certainly not mine.”
“The magazine's boob job competition landed it in hot water when the NSW Government announced an investigation into the legalities of offering a surgical procedure as a prize.”
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,22353983-5005961,00.html
This is just one example of many that reveals the “patriarchal government” is no patriarchy, it panders to feminist ideals constantly.
”why are feminists "hysterical" for asking not to be abused? you can't be unaware of the irony in your choice of language. you really do yourself no favours.”
Yeah here is the thing, feminist is not another word for women. Feminism is also horribly sexist and condescending to women, you’re implying that women are not capable of making rational choices about their own bodies and that a choice to receive fake boobs in a contest is a kin to abuse? Women choose to get fake breast all the time and they don’t need feminists telling them they are victims for doing so.
Women are very capable and have every right to make choices all by them selfs.
SHUT UP AURDEY YOUR PROBLY ONE OF THOSE SMELLY FEMMOS U PROBLY NEED DEDORANT SO Y DONT U JUST ENTER THIS COMPETITION U MAN H8R SOME OF US GIRLZ LIKE TO BE SEXY AND WHATS WRONG WITH THAT? UR PROBLEM IS U HATE WOMAN AND MEN AND WHOS FAULT IS THAT UR PROBLY FAT AND UGLY SO SHUT UP AND LET US HAVE OUR FUN.
ReplyDeletePS: Sorry, homo.
You have some strange homophobic friends Audrey.
ReplyDeleteHi Audrey, Petstarr directed me to your blog, and I must say - I love you; there aren't many women in this day and age who realise we certainly are still fighting for equality against lots and lots of fuckwits; and there are even less who can write so succinctly and eloquently about it. I'm going to send your words to all my femo-nazi mates and believe me, I've got lots of 'em! Well done sister.
ReplyDeleteHujo:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.abc.net.au/tv/summerheightshigh/#jonah/jonah_video/Preview
For anyone wanting more of our friend Hujo's intelligent musings on feminism:
ReplyDeletehttp://hottopictalk.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=15
Petstarr thanks for the link that is so bloody funny, why haven't I heard of this brilliant show??? Fantastic.
ReplyDeleteGod, what a freak/loser.
ReplyDeleteThat threads a joke hey, but I guess feminists are also humorless.
ReplyDeleteI really don't care what a raging homophobic, smear artist, whack job, think of that thread, you've proven your incapable of rational debate, hypocrite.
Now go ahead and call me gay again, i guess you feel thats the lowest thing a man could be.
Oh and Pet, sorry i didn't have time to watch your show, It's sweet that you would go to all this trouble in a misguided, erratic, attempt in silencing me, I'm flattered. But there are only two types of women I refuse to date and that's the mentally challenged and feminists, seeing as you fall into both categories, I'm afraid its never meant to be.
ReplyDeleteKeep up the um..work.. though it's women like you that make being an anti-feminist soo easy.
Hujo, i'm glad you are at least appropriately named.
ReplyDeleteHUge JOke.
That's incorrect http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=hujo
ReplyDeletebut at least it's coherent and clever.
Apparently, it’s frustratingly difficult to defend such a flawed and hateful ideology without resorting to smearing and shaming tactics. It’s clear when faced with a challenge feminist’s degenerate into intolerant children.
Lets see, so far I've been called a homo, a freak and a joke, I suppose I look like a monkey and smell like one too?
Way to reinforce my view of the feminist character.
If the more grown up commenters, Audrey, mspk or Edwards have anything substantial to ad, I will respond.
“The magazine's boob job competition landed it in hot water when the NSW Government announced an investigation into the legalities of offering a surgical procedure as a prize.”
ReplyDeletehttp://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,22353983-5005961,00.html
(btw your link doesnt work.)
damn right the Government should be investigating a surgical procedure as a prize.(and I don't actually see the word 'woman' in that sentence, either. I'm sure they would be just as concerned if the guy decided he wanted to keep the boob job for himself.)
Surgery is a serious business - not a holiday in the whitsundays. There are ethical considerations involved - (such as trivialising a serious invasive medical procedure and the use of medical resources to promote a magazine for a start)beyond whether or not you think its ok to remodel your partner to look more like the sex toy of your dreams.
'Pandering to feminism'. Good grief.
I love a good spirited debate! Apologies for my absence from it - been working like a demon (in a feminist organisation - there's been call for excessive hysteria this week, you know how it is...). I've been following it closely mind, just haven't had a chance to respond til now.
ReplyDeleteHujo - I feel like your (self described) anti feminism is leading you to deliberately misunderstand my points. Firstly, I specifically stated in the post (and reiterated to you) that I have no problem with sexual fantasies, enjoyment of sex, male sexuality, fantasies involving submission or other 'porny' scenarios - bring it on, sex is good etc etc. What I have a problem with is magazines like Zoo (which, as someone pointed out, is ranked number 30 in the top 100 or magazines in Australia - and I assume that means across the board of genres, which probably places it extremely high in the ranks of men's only mags) perpetuating the idea that a woman's value only comes through her body and how sexually compliant she is. Any dissension from their accepted mode of female sexuality (since you bring gendered sexuality into it) leads to them belittling and attempting to humiliate women who would dare to suggest that there are many other elements to them aside from sex. In regards to their initial competition, I find it irrelevant that many women opt to have breast augmentation surgeries, because I highly doubt their motivation for doing so. Before you jump to conclusions, I'm not suggesting that women who get boob jobs are somehow less enlightened than myself, or stupid - I think it's perfectly obvious that the desire for a boob job stems from the fact that it is considered sexually attractive and fashionable to have a whopping great set of jubblies perched on top of your chest. How on earth else could you explain why perfectly sane women would opt to have their breasts hacked into and distorted in what is arguably a very risky (and unnecessary) surgery?
i'll grant you that it might seem hypocritical to object to your blanket term of feminists while I use the term 'armies of men' - however, I think if you consider the sentence properly ("Indeed, "Feminist!" has become the rallying attack cry from the armies of men that refuse to acknowledge that a woman's greatest aspiration isn't uniquely connected to how much men want to fuck them.") you'll see that the subject ('armies of men') is followed by a qualifier - that being the armies of men THAT refuse etc. It's quite clear that I'm not talking about the entire world population of men here. It would be exactly the same as saying 'the armies of women that undergo brazilian waxes'. Clearly, I am not referring to ALL women because I for one do not consent to having all of my pubic hair violentally stripped from me.
I also take umbridge with your suggestion that the NSW Government was 'pandering' to feminist hysteria. Legitimate complaints were made (and not just by women - read the original article here to see that 'Dr Howard Webster, president of the Australian Society of Plastic Surgeons, said the organisation strongly disapproved of the stunt.
"It's medically unethical to offer surgery as a prize and furthermore it's inappropriate for a guy to win this prize and offer it to his girlfriend," Dr Webster said.'
Last time I checked, the Australian Society of Plastic Surgeons wasn't exactly an active member of the feminist hivemind.
One final clarification - Petstarr wasn't calling you a 'homo'. She was calling me a 'homo' and it was in reference to one of Chris Lilley's Summer Heights High characters. It was a joke intended for me. If you'd actually bothered to follow through the link she sent you, you might have seen that but you are clearly not interested in researching things properly before opening your mouth about them. To wit:
"Apparently, it’s frustratingly difficult to defend such a flawed and hateful ideology without resorting to smearing and shaming tactics. It’s clear when faced with a challenge feminist’s degenerate into intolerant children."
Yet again with the 'all feminists are rude and disrespectful and can't argue their way out of a paper bag'.
Being one of these proud feminists, I'd have to say your mightily wrong on this point - you know, given that I've completely trumped you on almost every one of your points without resorting to calling you names.
Now, on with everyone else!
bec - Milk and honey is very lovely indeed. I also concur that Meryl Streep would make a fine Germaine. I sent GG a letter the other day. I hope she reads it...
EC - Brilliant quote. That's going in a patch right onto my boiler suit.
eleanor bloom - I can only speak from my own experience, but I've found that I've sometimes had to stifle myself to contend with the fragile egos of boys. My last boyfriend (who is really very very lovely) sometimes complained that I was too bossy and he wished sometimes I could be a bit less so. I think he wanted to occasionally be able to make manly decisions and tell me what to do - and the thing is, there wasn't anything stopping him from doing that and I wouldn't have minded (equal share of power etc). But maybe something about me makes boys feel like they can't assert themselves. Their inability to do so though is really not my fault - or problem.
sakura - OH MY GOD, DO YOU HATE MEN TOO?!!! Join me, as we bathe in menstrual blood and curse our oppressors!!!!
ed - Hey Ed. To me, it seems quite obvious that Zoo's competition is a way of telling their detractors that they really couldn't give a crap about their disapproval because they know that the power is in their hands. I think it's a really aggressive act, to take that which offends their critics so much and by proxy subject them to the same. By the way, I'm exceedingly well thank you. Yourself?
simon - Hey there frenchy, thanks for the input! That six pack thing is completely disgusting. It's perfectly obvious that the rise in cosmetic surgery has nothing to do with personal empowerment and rather more to do with fashion and availability. How can we teach children to love themselves for themselves when this kind of gross example is being set? That's so true about porn as well. Hujo may argue that it's condescending of me to suggest that women aren't in control of their sexuality when they act these things out, but a cursory glance at X Tube will tell you that it's an industry dominated by men and male fantasy - by pure virtue of the fact that of the two genres (Straight and Gay) lesbian videos are loaded onto the 'Straight' site.
QZ - That is indeed one of the more frustrating things. Like I said over at feministing, it frustrates me beyond belief that my expense of angry energy over this is simply disregarded and laughed at by the turds at Zoo who think women really are just there for one thing.
lad litter - No I didn't, but I've seen how Greer's been treated at Today Tonight before.
Steph - thanks lady - though I'm sure the second part of your sentence ain't true.
john surname - It's true that I haven't had the somewhat dubious pleasure of their acquaintance yet - but I believe you.
rosanna - Thanks rosanna. I do so love to write about it! FEISTY!
bluemilk - Yeah, I followed through on that link at LP as well. Fabulous!
penni - But it will be the right kind of confused. Because they'll be, you know, naked and shit. And I know I can't think of a sexier present than two giant water bags bouncing around on my chest. Comfy!
mskp - The idea of it even being 'hysterical' behaviour is ridiculous. If that's what Hujo thinks, there's really going to be no way to talk him round, especially not if he dedicates forum threads to the evil that is FEMINISM.
Petstarr - You're right. I *am* fat and ugly. And I've got pubic hair - which is like, so totally gross. I'm also a 'ranga. With 'ranga pubes. *sob* ;)
kathy - Well, the media would have you believe that we don't exist but of course we know that's a load of old boots. Feel free to come here anytime, especially as you know the secret feminist handshake (complete with mime of twisting of the patriarchy's testicles)
sakura - Three words. You Tube it. You will wet your pants laughing...
jacob - No name calling please. It's not nice.
Hujo (again) - That threads a joke hey, but I guess feminists are also humorless.
I really don't care what a raging homophobic, smear artist, whack job, think of that thread, you've proven your incapable of rational debate, hypocrite.
Now go ahead and call me gay again, i guess you feel thats the lowest thing a man could be."
Again, the video Petstarr linked to is a comedy series. The 'homo' comment was a joke. Sorry if it was a bit too humorless for you. For the record, being gay is definitely not the lowest thing a man could be. The lowest thing would of course be being wilfully ignorant.
anon - Well said!
And that about sums it up for this round. I swear, this is causing more controversy than the post I wrote on burqas...
Hujo you seem to be blinded by either irrational hate or pure ignorance. It is hard to tell the difference with your rants. I don't think you can sum something up as complex as feminism ( or any social change movement) as simply as you have. Which strand of feminism do you fear so much? Only fear could drive anyone to dedicate so much time to hate. I am sure you are well read but i have to say that after reading your input here and some of your blog, it reminded me of what Jamie Lee Curtis' character in a fish called Wanda said of Otto when he proclaimed that 'apes don't read Nietzsche' and she retorted, 'yes they do, they just don't understand it. '
ReplyDeleteMost of your questions are, well a little cliched, and your justification that populist behaviour ( ie getting a boob job is empowerment and choice) is misguided.
And since you feel that feminists fall back into name calling etc, I should point out that I am not a feminist, nor am I ever likely to be a feminist. Maybe you get that response because of what it is that you write and your attitudes. Audrey has taken a far more balanced view of this issue than you and as such is both more entertaining and enlightening. Things I am guessing you aspire to be.
Audrey-“What I have a problem with is magazines like Zoo (which, as someone pointed out, is ranked number 30 in the top 100 or magazines in Australia - and I assume that means across the board of genres, which probably places it extremely high in the ranks of men's only mags) perpetuating the idea that a woman's value only comes through her body and how sexually compliant she is. Any dissension from their accepted mode of female sexuality (since you bring gendered sexuality into it) leads to them belittling and attempting to humiliate women who would dare to suggest that there are many other elements to them aside from sex.”
ReplyDeleteSo you are suggesting since Zoo magazines (female) models are sexually pleasing that it somehow belittles less than attractive women, that they are not infact simply exhibiting beauty but actively humiliating ugliness? I don’t get zoo but I have read its North American counterparts and I got to tell you it doesn’t go out of its way to mock less than average women.
This is feminism creating realities that aren’t actually there. I can see why the mag is having a good chuckle over feminist “reasoning”. Yes its popular for its exhibition of beauty not because men like to hate ugly women, it’s a free market.
I still wonder why the impossibly beautiful male models in men’s mags are invisible to feminists, if not why is male beauty not as harmful to men as female beauty is to women? It’s not outside of feminist society.
Audrey-"In regards to their initial competition, I find it irrelevant that many women opt to have breast augmentation surgeries, because I highly doubt their motivation for doing so. Before you jump to conclusions, I'm not suggesting that women who get boob jobs are somehow less enlightened than myself, or stupid - I think it's perfectly obvious that the desire for a boob job stems from the fact that it is considered sexually attractive and fashionable to have a whopping great set of jubblies perched on top of your chest. How on earth else could you explain why perfectly sane women would opt to have their breasts hacked into and distorted in what is arguably a very risky (and unnecessary) surgery?"
You’re contradicting yourself in this paragraph. “Women that make a choice about their own bodies are insane” Your whole argument is that to be considered sexually attractive and fashionable by men is harmful to women or that men’s mags are mind-controlling men to view only beautiful women as worthy. If you honestly felt fake boobs were harmless why would you have bothered to give a hoot in the first place? Listing to your reasoning you would think the contest winners GF was being rounded up in the middle of the night by the armed ZOO swat team and being forced to have the surgery with a gun to her head. Again I see why zoo is having a chuckle at the feminist’s expense.
“Armies of men” is still a perfectly insulting stereotype of men and you know it. I’ll go a step further; the majority of men are angered and resent stereotypes being dumped on them by “morally superior feminists” that are threatened by female beauty and men’s sexuality. They will call it like they see it. But what do I know I guess I am made of “slime and snails”?
Audrey-"“I also take umbridge with your suggestion that the NSW Government was 'pandering' to feminist hysteria. Legitimate complaints were made (and not just by women - read the original article here to see that 'Dr Howard Webster, president of the Australian Society of Plastic Surgeons, said the organisation strongly disapproved of the stunt.
"It's medically unethical to offer surgery as a prize and furthermore it's inappropriate for a guy to win this prize and offer it to his girlfriend," Dr Webster said.'
Last time I checked, the Australian Society of Plastic Surgeons wasn't exactly an active member of the feminist hivemind.”"
Well I am not to aware of your system but I know for a fact women’s health groups in my country are part of the feminist hive mind, its clear from this women’s statement she is indoctrinated by feminism. And I imagine part of the lobby group that got the gov involved.
“Women's health groups have attacked the magazine, …Dr Jenny O'Dea, of the University of Sydney. "You simply cannot treat women in this way, like objects there for men's satisfaction."”
Well Jenny you cant treat women like weak little stupid creatures that are incapable of making their own decisions and choices of what they can or can not do with their bodies. But that line of reasoning doesn’t blame men so I guess it can not be defined as feminist. Besides I am speaking of a greater problem and that is, 50 years of feminism has created a society where feminism is the authority on gender status, we teach feminist ideals in our universities, we institute feminist programs in our governments, while the feminists still pretend the government serves men. “Patriarchy” is a joke. We don’t see yours mine or the American government intervening on male circumcision (genital mutilation) but “oh no a girl might win some fake boobs, lets dip into the tax dollars and stop this travesty”
Well your buddy petstar is pretty incoherent and erratic also shes an “idol” junkie, nuff said.
Audrey-“Yet again with the 'all feminists are rude and disrespectful and can't argue their way out of a paper bag'.”
I was specifically referring to feminist commenters that were indeed resorting to childish tactics and proving my view of them correct, look up.
Simon- “Which strand of feminism do you fear so much?”
ReplyDeleteModern feminism.
“Only fear could drive anyone to dedicate so much time to hate.”
It's not that hard to hate an ideology that hates you, if I hated women because of feminism you would have a point, it is my belief that modern feminism is very sexist and condescending toward women, I hate an ideology that hates people, that’s called freedom not fear.
As for the rest of your post, i don't have the benefit of learning about gender from a non feminist perspective from any university or any other "authority" because feminism is the authority on gender status in the first world. Mine is a forced empirical view. I am really more concerned with a message, not impressing academic elitist. Next to feminists, academic elitist are the most indoctrinated, close minded people on this earth, I consider them a lost cause.
I don't think saying you are a huge joke was childish.
ReplyDeleteIt's hard to want to argue with someone who actually doesn't make any real sense, or doesn't even attempt to see the point of view of someone else.
Personally, i couldn't be bothered.
Obviously your closed mind is set in its ways, and nothing anyone says will change it because you aren't open to a real adult swapping of opinions.
Oh wait, i just followed your link and looked up your name in the urban dictionary.
ReplyDeleteHujo means 'somewhat spicey'
My mistake, that's much cooler than my guess.
I mean 'cool' in an 'urban dictionary' way obvs.
Hujo, the only hatred I feel here emanates from you. I am a feminist, an academic and actually a pretty nice person. To be honest I can see what you're saying, only I think the people you're calling feminists aren't actually feminists, they're misanthropists who have co-opted the word feminism. There certainly are feminists who want to burn men down. But there are many feminists who simply are concerned with how terribly unfair the world still is when you are a woman or if you are a man who doesn't buy into the dominant (to use your word) ideology. As a mother of daughters, it's hard to explain enormous billboards where women are sexually objectified, or help them decode a princess culture that's all about accentuating their weaknesses or telling them there's only one way to be a girl. We no longer watch commercial television because of the saturation of sexualised, commodified images of women and men - treating people as units in a commodity culture. As a mother too, I am very aware of how terrible childcare facilities are, how poorly set up many public facilities are, how many stereotypes still amass around the role of motherhood. And how terribly patronising the media is to stay at home dads (for example an article in the Age Sunday magazine about a father run play group - headlined 'Daddy Day Care' as if there is something terribly cute and terribly brave about Daddys looking after kids). My husband confronts this kind of patronising attitude all the time, and is as disgusted by it as I am for all the multiple values veiled in a comment of 'Aren't you good?' when he takes our daughters grocery shopping while I work. Anyway, apart from a number of other good reasons, these are the everyday issues that make me continue to identify myself as a feminist.
ReplyDeleteLike Audrey, I have no beef with Zoo magazine or its readership existing - it's a perfectly acceptable outlet for a shared male fantasy world. I have a beef with that shared fantasy world invading the real world with such a dangerous and self-serving competition. I would be similarly incensed if Cosmo or Cleo magazine (which mind you doesn't serve a similar function - instead of making women feel good about their fantasy lives, it creates an artificial sense of deprivation in order to promote and sell a materialistic culture) ran a competition for penile enhancements or any other kind of cosmetic surgery.
You say your issue is with an ideology (and I can empathise with that) and yet you have come here and behaved very badly and made a number of personal, bitter attacks against both your host Audrey and a number of her regular commenters. I think you have your politics confused; if the ideology of feminism was your only issue, surely it wouldn't be too much to ask for you to behave respectfully. That has nothing to do with academics or feminism, that is simply a question of good manners.
Penni- you sound more like a humanist to me. I would like to state in my defense there is a difference between an attack and a retaliation. Like zoo magazine i am retaliating against feminist rhetoric and ideas that see men reduced to morons that cant think for them selfs and women reduced to weak creatures that need feminist help making the right choices. Yes i am damned angry at this hateful institutionalized ideology that influences our governments and universities to care for women over men.
ReplyDeleteYou live in a nation whose government steps in to stop ONE adult woman from accepting a fake boob job in a contest and allows for millions of infant males to have their sexual nerves destroyed in the name of unproven hygienics and aesthetics.
I am in full agrement the system is not patriarchal but as you say misanthropic, but thats not what they teach in our schools.
I am an advocate for change, in other words an anti-feminist. I do not mean to be rude but I think Audrey's assessment of the situation is insulting to people, and i belive in free speech and freedom of expression.
I will give her one thing unlike American and Canadian feminist blogs she does not use censorship to guard her hateful flawed ideology from dissenting opinion and that is at least noble.
actually, male circumcision is very actively discouraged in Australia, and if you want to look at debates in varous forums ( I believe the was a small one in the Australian newspaper a while back), you will usually find that women are against it. They tend to very specifically object to having baby sons mutilated. (as you can tell, it is not something I support.)
ReplyDeletesome men agree with this, however
those who are for it are more usually men, and they argue for it because they believe that it gives their sons an advantage by protecting them from diseases. I believe they come to this decision because have penises, they were circumcised and they feel they are entitled to that opinion based on their own experiences.
It is interesting that you compare the two, because circumcision is not generally an issue for gender debate. Women, by and large, do not appear in newspapers and magazines trumpeting the beauty of the circumsized penis, as compared to the uncircumsized one. (though as a gay friend points out, its a big thing in his neck of the woods)
Perhaps you should ponder the likelihood of Cosmopolitan offering a 'free circumcision for your boyfriend' and you might get some insight to why women object to the free boob job.
then stop and consider the medical point of view - general vs local anaesthetic. complications to the penis vs complications to the chest wall, the nerves under the arms, reduced nervous sensitivity etc, or an inability to breastfeed, which may be a signicant problem years down the track.
so far you have raised two very spurious claims about the health system having some sort of conspiracy against men - one of them being that a concern for trivialising invasive surgery specifically for women is somehow a 'feminist conspiracy.'
not wildly convincing.
Did you hear that Penni? Apparently you're not a feminist after all, but a humanist. Good thing you've got Hujo here to clarify your personal belief system for you. You can probably start growing your hair long again now and getting rid of the "I Hate Male Sexuality" slogan tees.
ReplyDeleteSadly, I shall have to contend with furthering my own 'hateful' ideology by myself. Funny. I never realised I was hateful. Again, thanks Hujo for clearing that up for me.
hujo -- was this: "its clear from this women’s statement she is indoctrinated by feminism." regarding Dr Howard Webster?
ReplyDelete(ie. "'Dr Howard Webster, president of the Australian Society of Plastic Surgeons, said the organisation strongly disapproved of the stunt.
"It's medically unethical to offer surgery as a prize and furthermore it's inappropriate for a guy to win this prize and offer it to his girlfriend," Dr Webster said.')
My statement, Audrey, was that she considers men and women so she sounds like a humanist to me.
ReplyDeleteNice manipulation though.
Well its great to know male circumcision is receiving some attention in debate forums, but i think the greater point is the health orgs condemning this one boob job remain silent about the non benefits of circumcisions. I guess since feminism not humanism is not the practiced ideology in the first world its easy not to address it. Of course the fact money is to be made of the practice adds to their silence.
Eleanor, I think he's referring to Dr. Jenny O'Dea.
ReplyDelete"Women's health groups have attacked the magazine, …Dr Jenny O'Dea, of the University of Sydney. "You simply cannot treat women in this way, like objects there for men's satisfaction."
It was his crude attempt to avoid explaining acknowledging that Dr. Howard Webster had also criticised the competition - and that is was likely his opinion (not because he's a man, but because he's president of the Australian Society of Plastic Surgeons and hence knows what he's talking about in regards to elective surgery) that led to the NSW Govt investigating the competition.
It's becoming startlingly obvious that Hujo is incapable of rational debate because he insists on viewing feminism as a noxious gas released from the bowels of the devil himself. This is of course despite the rational debate feminists (who are, first and foremost WOMEN and not members of a robotic sect intent on destroying the world) here have been attempting to have with him - explaining their positions and the reasons for their own feelings of anger towards these competitions. Meanwhile, Hujo can only manage the most repetitive of arguments centred upon the rather vague (and frankly laughable) idea that feminists have taken over the world and are somehow exerting a psychic influence over all areas of governance expressly to make life uncomfortable for men like him.
No Elenore it's regarding...
ReplyDelete“Women's health groups have attacked the magazine, …Dr Jenny O'Dea, of the University of Sydney. "You simply cannot treat women in this way, like objects there for men's satisfaction."”
...Jenny O'dea of the university of Sydney a member of a womens health group, It was clearly referenced.
And for the record i don't think feminism only influences women, their are plenty biased male feminists in positions of authority causing problems.
Hujo - how on earth do you know what kind of bru ha ha 'the health groups' are making of male circumcision? For all you know, they could be campaigning tirelessly against the procedure through advocacy and education programs. Of course they're not going to get any press for this, because it's not responding to a specific event or action. Advocacy groups campaign for causes constantly and don't get any press coverage until something actually happens to warrant a news story. Your obstinance on this issue is not only astounding, but completely ignorant of the realities of how the media works.
ReplyDeleteAs anonymous said, most people in Australia are against circumcising boys now anyway. I know some men of my age that had it done (usually because their fathers had had it done and it wasn't seen as being a big thing), but their numbers are few. I'd argue that it would be even rarer amongst men younger than me.
So what, exactly, is your point? It seems to me that you're throttling one point in particular because you basically have nothing else to go on. Frankly, I'm becoming excessively tired of debating the issue with you because it's starting to insult my (and all the other commentors here) intelligence.
Hujo - "It was clearly referenced."
ReplyDeleteTo be fair to Eleanor, it wasn't clearly referenced at all. It would have been clear if Hujo had a better grasp of sequential narrative.
Yeah Audrey, I disagree with the feminist positions put forth. I don't see how that that means I think feminism is "Satan's fart"
ReplyDeleteI am only making an observation about your government, that i admittedly know little about.
In my country and America, men are less healthy, less educated and equal in number of domestic violence victims, yet there are more tax funded programs for womens health, education, and protection from violence.
My point is not "their is a conspiracy targeting men" (nice predictable smear though) Its that feminism has created an unequal system.
Thanks for proving me right about feminists resorting to childish tactics when not surrounded by sycophants.
Oh and thanks for reinforcing my views about academic elitists, its been ..well..predictable
ReplyDeleteAll right Audrey, I stand corrected it appears your government has taken a stance against male circumcision and even though it proves my ignorance of your system, Its great news!
ReplyDeletehttp://tinyurl.com/394y5g
"The State Government has ordered the ban, which starts next month, following medical advice that circumcision of baby boys was unnecessary."
Thank you for forcing me to enlighten myself about your system, Is it hard for Canadians to gain citizenship?
"I am only making an observation about your government, that i admittedly know little about."
ReplyDeleteFor something you admit to knowing little about, you sure threw your weight around on the issue.
I'd be interested in seeing some respected evidence showing that men in your country (I think you indicated somewhere that you were American) were equal in number of domestic violence victims. Yes, I'd be very interested in those figures. Could you find them for me please?
As far as smears go, I don't think I made any towards you that were unwarranted based on your argument. You *have* been arguing that feminists oppress everyone in society. How, therefore, have I smeared you? While we're getting nitpicky though, I think this is far more a smear:
"She is also implying "armies of men" feel that an unattractive women has no worth. When feminists imply things like this, it is only natural for men to dislike the stereotypes being dumped on them by feminists."
I never implied anything of the sort. I said that Zoo perpetuates the idea that a woman's primary function is to be sexually compliant. This has nothing to do with her looks (although, since you brought it up, it's Zoo that praises only one kind of female attractiveness, not me).
I also don't believe I've resorted to childish tactics anywhere in my argument. I've not called you names or even suggested anything about your own sexual proclivities or desires. I've merely tried to respond to the stances that you take such offence to. It's really not my fault if you can't cope with that. I'd suggest your defensiveness makes YOU the childish one, not me.
By the way, I'm not an academic. I'm just smart.
But, you know, thanks for reinforcing my views about people who assume having a brain makes you some kind of elitist. It's been...well...predictable.
I do not agree with your views on men and mens magazines influence over them, or you views about women that choose to get breast implant, or your views about exhibition of beauty being harmfully to women.
ReplyDeleteHowever you are very correct that i made an ignorant point about circumcision based on north American culture, without knowing anything about your sytem.
I do stand corrected on that point thank you for enlighting me. I am happy to be proven wrong about your government, it is good news for males!
I was just typing a comment to ask HU JO to provide some statistics to back up his domestic violence claim when Audreys much more eloquent post showed up.
ReplyDeleteSo whatever she said.
50% of women are victims of domestic violence and 50% are men, HU JO?
In North America?
I'm not an academic elite either, but i wouldn't mind seeing some academic research to back that up.
Thanks sunshine.
"I'd be interested in seeing some respected evidence showing that men in your country (I think you indicated somewhere that you were American) were equal in number of domestic violence victims. Yes, I'd be very interested in those figures. Could you find them for me please?"
ReplyDeleteOK
http://tinyurl.com/y49xfb
http://www.statcan.ca/Daily/English/050714/d050714a.htm
http://pubpages.unh.edu/~mas2/ID16.pdf
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/06/070625111433.htm
http://tinyurl.com/yocas3
http://tinyurl.com/o9n3w
http://tinyurl.com/2ygyqx
Need more? Let me know?
Um, did you actually read any of those links yourself?
ReplyDeleteI may be wrong - but i briefly looked over all of them. From what i could see, the australian bureau of statistics report wasn't on domestic violence at all, but violence in general. Men are victims more often in random attacks of violence, such as fights in bars.
We are discussing domestic violence. From what i saw the rest of the articles either didn't work or said that there needs to be more attention on violence against men, or that men don't report domestic violence incidents as often as women.
I still want to see statistics saying that men are equally victimised as women in regards to domestic violence. As you claimed.
It appears the Canadian (where I am from)link is not working..try this.
ReplyDeletehttp://tinyurl.com/h5ks5
"but i briefly looked over all of them."
ReplyDeleteNo shit I posted them 5 minutes ago.
Hujo, thanks for those links. I've only had a chance to look at the ABS report, but I found this part interesting:
ReplyDelete"VIOLENCE BY CURRENT PARTNERS
People who experienced violence from their current partner were more likely to experience physical, rather than sexual, violence.
Since the age of 15, 0.9% (68,100) of men and 2.1% (160,100) of women experienced current partner violence
10% (16,100) of women who had experienced violence by their current partner had a violence order issued against their current partner as a result of the violence. Of those women who had violence orders issued, 20% (3,200) reported that violence still occurred
Violence which occurs between partners in a home may affect the children who also live in the home.
49% (111,700) of men and women who experienced violence by a current partner reported that they had children in their care at some time during the relationship. An estimated 27% (60,700) said that these children had witnessed the violence
VIOLENCE BY PREVIOUS PARTNERS
Since the age of 15, people were more likely to have experienced violence from a previous partner than from a current partner.
4.9% (367,300) of men experienced violence from a previous partner compared to 15% (1,135,500) of women
32% (368,300) of women and 40% (146,500) of men who had ever experienced violence by their previous partner said there had only been one incident
59% (667,900) of women who experienced violence by a previous partner were pregnant at some time during the relationship; of these, 36% (239,800) reported that violence occurred during a pregnancy and 17% (112,000) experienced violence for the first time when they were pregnant
61% (822,500) of persons who experienced violence by a previous partner reported that they had children in their care at some time during the relationship and 36% (489,400) said that these children had witnessed the violence
CHILD PHYSICAL AND SEXUAL ABUSE
Child physical abuse includes any deliberate physical injury (including bruises) inflicted on a child, before the age of 15, by an adult.
Child sexual abuse is any act, by an adult, involving a child under the age of 15 years in sexual activity.
The proportion of women and men who experienced physical abuse before the age of 15 was 10% (779,500) and 9.4% (702,400) respectively
Women were more likely to have been sexually abused than men.
Before the age of 15, 12% ( 956,600) of women had been sexually abused compared to 4.5% (337,400) of men"
I'm not a statistician, but it seems to me that those figures indicated that the majority of violence that occurs in the home happen to women. I suspect that the general percentages of violence experienced by men (in and outside of the home) is inflated by the fact that men (statistically, according to these figures) are more likely to become embroiled in a physical fight with a stranger.
Further, it seems obvious to me that these figures of violence in the home may be affected by the particular type of violence. Specifically, male to female violence seems obviously more likely to cause more damage, given that men generally have greater physical strength than women. I certainly agree that women are very capable of being the perpetrator in domestic violence and that male victims of this experience varying levels of shame connected with the expectations of masculinity versus their ability to prevent it...BUT - I would argue that male to female domestic violence is still far more prevalent and phyically damaging than female to male (and going by the ABS figurs, involves a greater percentage of both sexual violence and repeat incidents.)
5 minutes is long enough for an elite academic like me to discern fiction from non-fiction, HU JO
ReplyDeleteLook its not about men vs women read the Canadian stats.
ReplyDeleteFact is there are no mens shelters at least here.
Advocating support for male victims of violence does not win votes.
Nobody has said it is women V men. You made that statement. I can't speak for others, but i doubt that anyone here would argue that men don't become victims, or don't deserve help if they are in that situation just as much as women do. That wasn't the part we disagreed with.
ReplyDeleteWell you should study more, men are not receiving support.
ReplyDeleteMen face a greater stigma from their traditional roles, "its wimpy to get beat up by a girl" "it doesn't happen to men" they are less likely to even report it, and seek help for it, and more likely to suffer in silence (like a man). Consider a working man (sorry privileged patriarch) being abused by his stay at home (sorry oppressed) wife, now if he reports her, she can easily abuse the bias system and claim her abuse was in fact defense and our feminist inspired stereotypes about men will likely see her lie taken seriously. It's your feminist view of DV that we indoctrinate our cops and judges with. Also if he loves his children he stands a good chance of losing them when initiating a divorce as the family courts are bias as well. Mights as well just shut up and take it like a real man/ oppressive patriarch should.
It is both mens traditional molds coupled with feminism demonization and stereotypes of "privilege" that allows the equal number of male victims to continue suffer in silence without support.
Now ask me about "the wage gap"
Now you are arguing against invisible foes. I didn't read anywhere that anyone said men were recieving appropriate support if they were being abused.
ReplyDeleteMeh?
Ummm....I would argue that in the days before feminists 'indoctrinated cops and judges', men were even less likely to report women to male DV because their respective domestic roles were even more polarised.
ReplyDeleteAs Bec says, neither of us are suggesting that men shouldn't receive support in these situations. It's a travesty that men don't feel they can speak up because they're supposed to be manly and powerful - but that's hardly the fault of feminism. Feminism isn't exactly a loud proponent of keeping these gender stereotypes alive. If anything, modern day feminism has worked to encourage men to reject these ridiculous macho labels. I fail to see how it's compounding the situation for male victims purely because women's shelters exist (and did so far before feminism became the powerful and indoctrinating entity you believe it is today.)
Also, don't start on the wage gap. You won't win.
Bec, did you mean 'wereN'T receiving appropriate support'?
ReplyDeleteThis is getting petty, I didn't imply any one was stating that men were receiving support. I was simply stating men are not receiving support.
ReplyDeleteJust like I am stating men and women in the same positions working the same hours are being paid the same.
The "wage gap" is a feminist manipulation that takes into account only general incomes not same positions and falsely demonizes men as discriminators.
Given that salaries are negotiated, it's difficult for you to back up your claim Hujo. People on hourly rates are no doubt being paid the same, but salaried positions are a different kettle of fish.
ReplyDeleteYou also haven't taken into account the fact that, altough women are more likely to succeed academically, men are more likely to ascend the career ladder while women get stuck in middle management.
It's spurious for you to claim otherwise, because endless studies have proven that the wage gap exists. In fact, it's recently increased in the UK.
Your crusade against feminism seems to often blind you to reality.
Hujo
ReplyDeleteMost of what you have written is harmless drivel. Misguided, immature and silly. As Audrey has pointed out you seem incapable of rational argument.
However your assertion that men are equally a victim of domestic violence is not only stupid, but dangerous. There are already too many apologists for men who beat women. The facts are that women are far more likely to be effected by domestic violence. I have better things to do than to dig out links for you. Do your own research. If you are going onto sites to play the devil's advocate position get your facts right
Audrey
ReplyDeleteRight, like I said your article compares the general incomes of men and women, managers, WITHOUT factoring in overtime, responsibility, regional market, education, and experience. A complete manipulation of facts that’s advocating granting women privileges for less effort and that’s falsely demonizing men as discriminators.
http://tinyurl.com/ywa5wa
Like their counterparts in North America, European women simply are more likely than men to prioritize their family over career advancement. (For instance, they are four times more likely to work part-time than men.)
http://tinyurl.com/2e8fb2
But this statistic says little about women's compensation and the influence of discrimination on men's and women's earnings. All the relevant factors that affect pay -- occupation, experience, seniority, education and hours worked -- are ignored. This sound-bite statistic fails to take into account the different roles that work tends to play in men's and women's lives.
http://www.nysun.com/article/50601
The 77% figure cited by Mrs. Clinton comes from comparing the 2005 full-time — defined as 35 hours a week or more — median annual earnings of women with men compiled by the Census Bureau. The 2006 Department of Labor data show that women's full-time median weekly earnings are 81% of men's. New York women do better, with salaries at 83% of men's. Comparing men and women who work 40 hours weekly shows women's earnings at 88% of men's.
These statistics are computed from government data and do not take into account education, job title and responsibility, regional labor markets, work experience, occupation, and time in the work force. When economic studies include these major determinants of income, rather than simple averages of all men and women's salaries, the pay gap shrinks even more.
I don’t know what time it is in Australia but its 2:00 AM here g’night mates.
I don't know a huge amount about the health system in Nth America. My feeling is that a user pays system in a wealthy country is barbaric. The US could surely afford to provide excellent health care to all its citizens, male and female?
ReplyDeleteso the point I make is a qualified one. It may NOT be true of your system.
Most health programs specifically targeting women are centred around reproductive needs. This includes programs to encourage ante-natal and post-natal care, breastfeeding support, and contraception. sometimes early child care and vaccination are included as part of these programs.
While these programmes are nominally for women's health, they are actually addressing issues that have an impact on BOTH genders. babies (and the parents that love them) come in both genders, although as a rule baby boys tend to be more fragile and more vulnerable to genetic problems (for example, fragile X or hemophilia) - Premature boys are also statistically more likely to die than premature girls. So good maternal health benefits all children, but it is baby boys that stand to benefit most.
contraception is also for the use of both partners, though treated primarily as a 'woman's issue'.
While a country may neglect the health of its adult citizens, it is less easy to be seen to ignore the needs of its children. Since children grow inside women's bodies, the programs need to incorporate maternal health.
It seems unbelievably mean spirited to attack maternal health care as somehow depriving men in some way... especially when it is apparently fine for Zoo magazine to promote widespread acceptance of unnecessary surgery like breast augmentation in otherwise healthy women.
One more point - perhaps if you campaigned for a universal health system rather than against feminist conspiracies you might end up with a system that DIDN'T promote elective surgery (like circumcision) as a moneymaking enterprise.
If only the greater number of womens program focused only on prenatal care, that is not the case. Here are the women’s heath programs in Canada that cover everything from health awareness to lesbian health…
ReplyDeleteWomen's Health Strategy
http://tinyurl.com/23s3ll
Women's Health Contribution Program
http://tinyurl.com/yrben2
Bureau of Women's Health and Gender Analysis
http://tinyurl.com/ag2r7
Women's Health Indicators Project
http://tinyurl.com/yuezpm
Also, here is a link to various women's health reports and publications
http://tinyurl.com/yoj8n3
While the less healthy gender with the shortest life span, that’s most prone to substance abuse and suicide, and more likely to die of heart attack and stroke, with its own specific cancers (prostate, testicular) gets nothing.
Here is the American program for women
http://www.4women.gov/owh/
Here are male activists fighting for an equal piece of the health pie.
http://www.menshealthoffice.info/
“Alarming statistics show that men's health is at great risk. On average, men die 6 years younger than women and suffer higher mortality rates for the top 10 causes of death. The lives of hundreds of thousands of men will continue to be threatened unless immediate action is taken to combat this growing crisis. The Office of Men's Health will coordinate the fragmented men's health awareness, prevention, and research efforts now being conducted by federal and state government.
An Office of Men's Health, styled after the Office of Women's Health, will be well placed to coordinate outreach and awareness efforts on the federal and state levels, promote preventative health behaviors, and provide a vehicle whereby researchers on men's health can network and share information and findings.”
It appears women are the protected class in North America.
Simon- Riiight I am a “violent male apologist!” Nice manipulation, and here I thought you weren’t a feminist. Why not check the research I provided, and understand that men receive no support no shelters while this feminist push for “women are the only victims” only helps to add to male victims invisibility. If we’re creating the impression it doesn’t happen to men we are enabling men not to report it. Funny you can’t research or provide links. And here I thought you were an academic. Sorry Simon I was all wrong about you.
Audrey, when I speak of “feminist indoctrination” I speak of the view that men are the “primary aggressor” And the idea that “women cant escape DV because they are the oppressed, underclass, dependant on men.” These feminist concepts not only enable men to feel it “doesn’t happen to them” they have allowed for the creation of draconian laws targeting men, removing their cival rights and allowing abusive women to abuse the bias system and claim their abuse is defense.
ReplyDeletehttp://news.mensactivism.org/node/7549
In America there is vaWa
The only thing I am advocating is a system that treats victims equally, and that treats the abusers equally (women actually being arrested and serving equal jail sentences as male abusers)
Men are equally trapped by stigma and by the biased family courts.
Hujo
ReplyDeleteYou really are a condescending little shit. When I said i had better things to do than provide links, it really was that I had better things to do, like go to brunch with my wife, children and our friends. I have no interest in justifying anything to you and I am not looking for the pseudo intellectual justification of my intelligence that you really seem to crave from your blogs and your diatribes here. Most, if not all of your arguments are not based in fact, but some sort of bizarre agenda that seems to be based in an irrational hatred of any woman or man who has an opinion that differs from your twisted view of the conspiracy of feminism. I love the fact that you lump European women with American women. Have you ever met a European woman and do you have any idea what they have to go through with regard to wage equality. It doesn't exist. So if you think there is an equal playing field, tell me how many women are CEO's of a Dow Jones , a CAC 40 or a FTSE 100 company? Audrey has pointed out that women in general perform better in education than men, yet worse in the business community ? Why is that, because they have babies? Men are encouraged to have a family in corporate as it shows stability, women having a family is seen as they are not dedicated to their career, and a threat to their future growth as an employee. Is that wage or perceptual equality? Hujo grow up and go and do something in the real world rather than vicariously live through a computer. I can't work out if you are a bright 10 year old or a guy that has been screwed in a divorce and lost his kids, so think all women are conspiring against men.
Audrey, I apologise for being aggressive on your blog which is full of love, good humour and logical argument, but this guy is a complete moron.
Simon
ReplyDeleteHow shocking a smear tactic! A ten year old divorcee? UMM... not married, never will be in north America. (before you get your hopes up, or the obligatory "loser that cant get laid" smear comes into play, I am not currently single)
Actually Simon i was not living vicariously (another smear!)people were requesting info and I am obliging. I was providing info from all over and not making any comparison (another manipulation!) Why aren't more women ceo of dow jones? Well maybe because women didn't make dow jones what it is today and the ceo's are typically old men, with a lifetime of experience and dedication to the industry.
Women have only been out preforming men in education for one generation, (the reasons why are another debate)also the manipulated stats used, incorporates women of all ages and generations. It takes time to create empires and head them, give it time. Or you think young women should just be placed in top positions cause they are women?
Of that generation of women there is already evidance to support they ARE out earning young men.
http://tinyurl.com/2y4cb8
"Young women in New York and several of the nation’s other largest cities who work full time have forged ahead of men in wages, according to an analysis of recent census data."
Not that it directly relates out beating them as well.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/06/070625111433.htm
"In addition it showed that nearly twice as many women as men said they perpetrated domestic violence in the past year including kicking, biting or punching their partner, threatening to hit or throw something at their partner, and pushing, grabbing or shoving their partner."
Looks like we should have also been encouraging women not to be violent and we should have also been telling boys they can do anything, instead we’ve been a feminist culture and these are the results.
Yep when you are comparing general incomes of a whole society the fact women choose to stay home and mother or work part time defiantly effects the wage gap. Women are free to choose career over family. Men are free to choose family over career. Freedom of choice is a reality.
When you don't take into account the elite 2% of top positions and compare the vast majority of positions, within the same markets, with the same education, experience and hours worked there is no wage gap. These variables that feminists completely ignore also effect a persons salary.
Simon-Given your reaction to someone with a different outlook and opinion i think you would be wise to take your own advise about fear.
I don't necessarily want to be here either but people, like you, are responding to me and asking me questions, i was always taught the polite thing to do is answer?
you really are a moron.
ReplyDeleteGoodbye
You really are a sad insecure elitist.
ReplyDeleteToodles
'Yep when you are comparing general incomes of a whole society the fact women choose to stay home and mother or work part time defiantly effects the wage gap. Women are free to choose career over family. Men are free to choose family over career. Freedom of choice is a reality'
ReplyDeleteNow i know you ARE joking, HU JO. Ha ha.
Simon, I've enjoyed reading your perceptive and extremely restrained comments.
ReplyDeleteNo that is no joke why is it so hard to read articles and research them. The "women make 70-ish cents to the dollar" claim is made by simply taking all men and womens incomes and comparing them without factoring in any other variables. Young women are starting to out earn young men, women are perfectly free to choose a career over family, It's the truth I cant help that your closed minds are stopping you from looking into it and making you resort to name calling and smear tactics.
ReplyDeleteI tried.
Why should women have to choose family over career? Men do not have to choose - they can have both, quite happily. The social structures aren't in place that allow most women to have the same amount of freedoms as men.
ReplyDeleteBecause you cant reform biology. Like I said men are free to choose family over career. A women is free to choose a man that wants to stay at home. But a man that stays at home is the biggest loser in the event of divorce as the kids he's reared and bonded with will most likely go with mom. Not to mention the stigma attached to stay at home dads. And men having both is not a reality for all men, many men have a career and pay for a family the hardly get to see.
ReplyDeleteThis still doesn't make the wage gap the result of male discrimination.
Just catching up here...
ReplyDeleteHUJO said to check out the Canadian stats, so I did.
They do not say that domestic violence is experienced equally by both sexes. For example:
Data show that the nature and consequences of spousal violence were more severe for women than for men. Female victims of spousal violence were more than twice as likely to be injured as male victims. Women were also three times more likely to fear for their life, and twice as likely to be the targets of more than 10 violent episodes. ...
Severity of spousal violence greater for women:
Overall, the survey found that women were more likely to experience more serious forms of spousal violence than men.
Nearly one-quarter (23%) of female victims reported that the most serious form of violence experienced was being beaten, choked, or threatened by having a gun or knife used against them. This was the case for 15% of male victims.
About 44% of female victims of spousal violence indicated that they suffered injury because of the violence, more than twice the proportion of 19% among male victims. ...
The survey indicates that the risk of violence is particularly elevated at the time of separation, especially in the case of women. One-third (34%) of women who experienced violence during their relationship said that the violence increased in severity or frequency after separation. The number of men who reported violence during their relationship was too small to produce reliable estimates. ...
Overall, female victims were twice as likely as male victims to be stalked by a previous spouse. ...
The accused involved in family-related homicide-suicides against a child or youth was most often a parent of the victim. In 66% of cases, the accused was the father, in 27% the mother, and in 2% a step-father. ...
I do understand your argument re it is difficult for men to admit their wife/girlfriend is abusing them and there perhaps is a lack of shelters for such men. Audrey had a wonderful point in response to this however, explaining that feminism has only helped in lessening such stigmas for men and has encouraged greater equality.
I encourage you in your work to support abused men. I would like to add that I believe you might get further if you refined your arguments and reduced your anger. I'm sure most of us here would only encourage men to speak out about such abuses more.
I do feel it is important in your quest to assist such men to not forget that women overall are abused more and injured more. Although this may not be the case in specific and individual examples, it is very much the general reality.
Thank you for being so considerate.
ReplyDeleteYes females do suffer more severe forms of violence more often than men, but that does not write-off the severe and "mild" violence men experience. Outside of separation cases, men experience severe violence virtually half as much as women and considering it is not at all recognized, and there are virtually no shelters for men with little support and advocacy for men from our governments and charities it would horrible to suggest the situation shouldn't change.
I'm willing to bet a number of people here didn't even realize it was this prevalent for males.
Even if a man is "simply" being slapped around constantly by his wife that is still abuse and does cause psychological trauma. It being considered "mild" does not exucuse her behavior and it does not mean he should have no means of escape.
The current reasoning is that scince severity of abuse happens more often to women we should treat it as a womens issue and support and advocate help for women only. This is a very flawed and unfair way of addressing the issue. And it is the way our society currently addresses it. It creates a society that ignores male suffering.
80% of suicides are committed by males should suicide prevention be presented as a mens issue?
We are now seeing young women becoming more violent then young males, I think a reason for that is what we have been teaching about dv, "it doesn't happen to men, it is the result of men"
I think their is a deference between simply being angry and being provoked by stereotypes, insults and condescension. Many commentors here were completely rude and disrespectful.
http://www.hunter.health.nsw.gov.au/menshealth/index.htm
ReplyDeletehttp://www.dhhs.tas.gov.au/agency/pro/menshealth/index.php
- that one states 'men do not often access health services until their health and wellbeing is seriously compromised.'
So not exactly 'feminism's
fault'... (and my experiences in the health system would back this up.)
http://www.menshealthnetwork.org/MHN_Programs2.html
hey- this is an American one. the land where the feminists are excluding men from the health system.
http://www.menshealthforum.org.uk/userpage1.cfm?item_id=1664
- and on we go. pages of them.
It appears that there are quite a few non-reproductive health programmes specifically for men in the western world.
there are plenty of women in the US dying from preventable disease as well. For example, I have spoken to American women online and am appalled that routine tests like pap smears are often not undertaken because of prohibitive cost. HPV is a disease both men and women get, but it can trigger cervical cancer in women. It is so easily treated, yet it's being left until it is a serious health issue. Once again, it seems evident to me that many people in the US suffer inadequate healthcare under a user pays system. Surely a 'feminist conspiracy' would see women receiving free treatment and men receiving none.
One of the greatest killers of men is heart disease, and having a relative whose speciality is cardiac medicine (and who has worked in Canada) I can tell you that the majority of consumers of cardiac resources are men. Once again, it is not the fault of either the men themselves (though as mentioned before, men often refuse to take responsibility for seeking treatment) or feminism, but pure and simple biology. Female hormones provide some protection from heart disease up until menopause, so if it manifests , tends to manifest later and is often picked up in its more treatable early stages by the individual taking responsibility for their own health. No one is suggesting we divide up the cost of cardiac medicine by gender. It is done on a basis of need and I very much doubt whether anyone grudges that.
You state we can't reform biology. This is far more biologically determined than the provision of childcare.
risk taking is another problem with young males - and another reason why they are over-represented in emergency wards.
Interestingly, a television commercial was launched in Australia recently to discourage young men from speeding - using observers waving their 'little finger' to indicate that young men driving dangerously had something to compensate for. ( just a joke on the alpha male, according to my brother)
Many men responded to this by objecting to the ad being sexist. Not one objection ever specified a better alternative for encouraging young men to take better care of themselves. All of society would gladly see the numbers of this kind of stupid accident reduced.
As regards a stay at home father losing his children, once again I can't speak for the US or canada, but in Australia the family court seeks to maintain the status quo. which in effect means the children remain with the stay at home parent, or primary carer.
Interesting that you feel it is a 'loser option' however. The stigma for stay at home Dads is once again culturally irrelevent. Media coverage of stay at home fathers is quite positive in Australia - in fact more so than the media coverage of stay at home mothers, who are often represented as 'bludgers'.
They do face the real problem that stay at home mothers do - which is marginalisation within or exclusion from the workforce, and the eroding of their professional skills..
however I know two sole parent fathers who were previously stay at home fathers and who embrace their roles - both freely acknowledge that this opportunity has become available to them largely because of the breakdown in prescribed gender roles promoted by feminism.
It seems to me that you are simply determined to look for social problems then find a way to 'blame feminism.' Most of the problems you raise - in the medical system especially - have nothing to do with feminism at all.
I believe suicide statistics in this country indicate that men tend to be more successful at it, and choose more violent methods, whereas women tend to attempt it more often with a lower success rate. Are we comparing despair, mental illness or ability to make a convincing job of it?
ZOMG! 96 comments!
ReplyDeleteMan this comments thread is HU-JO! (did I use it right? Or can it only be used in reference to Mexican shrimp?)
Who knows, who cares - I'm an incoherent erratic Idol fan, and I'm a feminist homophobic bitch with pubes like a birds nest AVERT YOUR EYES CHILDREN, SHE MAY CHANGE FORM!
PS: At least I'm not a ranga.
Anonymous your links that are working are not government, Tax funded, organizations. My point with health care was to disprove the patriarchy, the government serves womens health while men fight for them selfs on the grass roots level. The women dying of disease at least have the governments support.
ReplyDeleteAlso in America and Canada, government violence programs serve women, I have already referenced the law here and we all know about vawa.
It is not only mens trad molds that prevent them from seeking help it is also that the feminist influenced governments do not create programs, build shelters or promote the idea it happens to men. They spout the idea "women are trapped by mens oppression" "women suffer severe violence more" As if this justifies discluding male victims. They have created laws that jail men and remove their property on the same day as HER CLAIM.No due process. It is the feminist view of dv that has help to leave men without support and removed their civil rights. The issue of DV is presented as a womans issue by the "patriarchal"/ feminist goverment. Also an abused male seeking divorce stand a greater chance of losing his children to the mother as our, government run, family courts are very biased as well. This "patriarchy" does not serve men.
"iinterestingly, a television commercial was launched in Australia recently .."
http://tinyurl.com/38km6j
Yes men had every right to lash out against that brutally sexist ad camping that try's to shame men into obedience. Its called sexism and it's directed at males. Again some patriarchy.
If things are better in the family courts their thats great.
Yes I believe feminism lies about gender status, steryotypes men, demonizes them, effectively shutting them out of solutions.
I believe feminism is an institutionalized power an ideology taught in our universities and practiced by our governments and it is conveniently blind to the ways women are privileged and men disadvantaged. I think society needs to start consider all people and stop placing women first.
Aren't I a monster for wanting both genders to be considered. FEMinism doesn't do this. We can no longer pretend its grass roots.
I think you should keep things in perspective. Have a look at the global statistics for education, health and so called 'advantages'. Men are still advantaged over women in all walks of life. You have grabbed hold of one area of life, only having effect on you and people like you. Then you are using this one narrow view to judge feminism. Ridiculous.
ReplyDelete"Men are still advantaged over women in all walks of life."
ReplyDeleteYes thats certainly what they teach. The proof however is lacking. All men are not the 2% of elite, a vast minority of men are criminals. Women are favored by the government in education, health and are given more leiniant sentences in court. Do you realize that men are the majority victim of overall violence, that men are the majority of victim in homicides, that men are the majority homeless, that men are the majority of work place deaths, that men are the majority of suicides, that men are the majority of combat deaths, that only men can be drafted, that men do the worst and are the minority in education, that men have the least reproductive/parental rights, that men are routinely allowed to be repeatably raped in prison systems with no deterrent to stop it?
And FEMinism? is the institutionalized authority on gender status in the first world.
I can say the same thing about you and your feminist view. Step out side the box and view society outside the indoctrination of feminism and reality looks a lot different. In the first world women are more educated now when they where not in America they created programs to address it claiming of course "male discrimination, now that it's reversed boys get nothing. Boys getting nothing is a common theme because feminism tells us they are all privileged so they don't need or deserve it.
Its a manipulation that excludes men from solutions. Your view is a learned educated/indoctrinated view and it's the problem.
I don't want it to be about men vs women and i don't want women to go without, I want men to be included, feminisms lies about "privileged men and disadvantaged women" prevent this.
An end to modern feminism simply means the birth of humanism and the beginning of true equality.
The idea that men are deserving of support, means an end to the idea men are all "oppressive privileged patriarchs" an end to feminist demonisation.
IMO
It is very apparent this is going nowhere.
I foolishly tried.
*shakes head*
ReplyDeleteyou foolishly tried? you foolishly did indeed.
Personally I don't find humanism incompatible with feminism. Not one person here has said feminism is about perpetuating an unequal system. No one has said that men are undeserving of support. Except you. The problems of men - so much more important than the problems of women, even though they may be exactly the same - are all - according to you - apparently caused by feminism.
Yes, men are the majority of homicide victims. They are mostly killed by other men. Feminists aren't doing the killing here. Men are the majority of victims of workplace accidents - once again, feminism is not killing these men - inadequate workplace safety and corporate cost cutting are responsible..and you're going to find advocate groups for these people are FILLED with mothers -some of them feminists - who have lost sons (or wives who have lost husbands etc..)
Are men doing worse in education? or are women doing better? Do women have to be kept uneducated because they are succeeding?
Your comments about the health system are ludicrous - no mention of the fact that men are vastly overrepresented in many other areas of health care that are not gender specific, and are funded accordingly. No, we're just going to say its feminism's fault that men aren't as healthy. My two areas of experience (cardiac and premature babies) would indicate to me that men are biologically more vulnerable... and that treatment is given accordingly.
(sorry if my links don't work but the men's health links in Australia would be Government funded because we have a public health system that pays for these initiatives. I don't know about US. I would imagine the UK links are publicly funded too.)
The only inequity you admit to is the lives of stay at home parents and the right to combine family and work. But that's biology. Unless it men are doing it, and then its discrimination.
you are so determined to be a victim of feminism here. good luck with that. I'm sure it keeps you from having to take any responsibility at all.
btw there are two anonymice here.
end of rant for me, too I think.
re that ad.
ReplyDeleteits better to have dead teenagers than to 'shame men' into obeying the law?
wonderful male activism there, Hujo. I'll pass on your male pride message to some of my male friends who have lost sons. They'll be so gratified to know that having the size of your penis questioned is so much more traumatic than dead boys.
and I would write to cosmo about the free circumcision contest for your boyfriend - except that women - feminists included - don't promote mutilating men to make them more sexually attractive.
"and I would write to cosmo about the free circumcision contest for your boyfriend - except that women - feminists included - don't promote mutilating men to make them more sexually attractive."
ReplyDeleteZING!
Give it up people! No point arguing with someone that refuses to see reason. As Willow would say, "Bored now."
I was bored fifty comments ago, but i have stamina.
ReplyDeleteBeing a feminist means that you are a fugly slapper in need of a good shag and a set of big ones.
ReplyDeleteGermaine is an attention seeking whore whose academic credentials are as suspect as her gender. My bitch has got big ones and knows what to do with them.
anonymous - Like stuff them down your throat until you choke and die?
ReplyDeleteOh goodness, anonymous. Please take me to your bed and give me a good hard shagging. Obviously a penis in my vagina is all i really need. That's it!! I'm giving up all this AMAZING lesbian sex for two minutes with you and your tiny penis. That will cure me of this pesky independent thought and intelligence!
ReplyDeleteObviously the 'big ones' you say your partner has does not mean that she a 'big ability to choose a decent man', or 'her big self esteem' or anything annoying like that.
Hey Audrey,
ReplyDeleteI drop in on your blog from time to time because I find it quite stimulating. I know you're an intelligent woman and I have a lot of respect for your opinion, based on what I've read.
I've posted a little anti (certain aspects of) feminism rant on my blog and I'm curious to know your thoughts on it.
If you get time, drop by and tell me what you think. I'm interested.
http://serrins-karma.blogspot.com
(Sorry to practically advertise on here but I couldn't find a way to contact you personally, hope you don't mine me using your comments section insted. Delete this after reading it if you like.)
Hysteria. Love that word. From hystera (womb, Gk), the idea being of course that hysteria is characteristically a feminine condition, caused by disturbances of the uterus.
ReplyDeleteW
OK. "If you hate men, we want to see you in your underwear"?
ReplyDeleteWrong on so many levels.
I think, once again, the 'feminist' thing is being conflated with so many other things.
And the submission thing? If you do it properly, the whole point is that it's *not* just about the dominant partner. It's just as much about the submissive partner's pleasure, etc.
And the comfy shoes thing? Makes me. So. Cross. LOTL ran a piece a couple issues back about how hard it is for lesbians to find comfortable shoes. Because, apparently, SSA people have different shaped feet, or something. I have short hair and wear comfortable shoes and don't giggle at what men say unless it's particularly amusing. I guess that makes me a lesbian. Thanks for the memo.